For political junkies who cut their teeth on “60 Minutes,” “Meet the Press,” CNN, and Fox News, longform podcasts were a godsend. Finally freed of commercial restraints and surface-level superficialities, longform podcasts took you beyond the talking points, treating audiences to a deep dive of a topic’s intricacies. Even when the podcast host had limited knowledge of the subject matter (Joe Rogan, I’m looking at you), the benefit of the longform platform was that it facilitated an open-ended, free-floating conversation where both sides learned more about the other.
But there was an important catch: It only worked when both sides were acting in good faith. You had to really, truly care about what they say. More than anything else, that’s the secret to Joe Rogan’s phenomenal success: He’s genuinely curious about his guests.
He doesn’t invite them on to mock them or belittle them. He’s not trying to settle stupid feuds, score points, or play a political game of “gotcha.” Instead, Rogan respects his guests and wants to learn more.
That sure wasn’t Tucker Carlson’s approach during his astonishingly mean-spirited interview with Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.). The ex-Fox News host had absolutely no interest in hearing Cruz’s opinions or to better understand his (and President Trump’s) position on Israel, Iran, or anything else. His purpose wasn’t to have a grown-up conversation about grown-up issues, but to mock and belittle Ted Cruz so the video “goes viral”:
“Oh, I don’t think I’m obsessed with Israel,” Tucker Carlson said… in a podcast where Israel was mentioned 140 times!
Ted Cruz tried his best to be conciliatory: He warmly welcomed Tucker Carlson (the interview was filmed in Cruz’s Senate office). He began by complementing Carlson, crediting him for his leading the opposition against COVID restrictions. He stressed that they agree far more than they disagree. Cruz gave him a full two hours of his time!
He was polite and respectful.
And Carlson responded with rudeness, condescension, personal attacks, and laughing in his face.
“No Iranian is ever going to kill me,” Carlson confidently claimed, bashing Trump’s policy towards Israel and Iran. (I guess Tucker is immune to radiation?) As many of you know, Carlson is spearheading a campaign to derail the most delicate, high-stakes foreign policy initiative of the Trump presidency: Supporting our ally, Israel, in its bid to defang the Iranian nuclear menace, while also keeping us out of another “Forever War.”
Carlson is siding with AOC, Bernie Sanders, most of the Democratic Party — and the Russian/Iranian governments, too — by opposing Trump.
But don’t you dare imply he’s anti-Trump. No sir:
“I love Trump!” Carlson told Cruz. He actually said it more than once during their podcast. Alas, what Carlson claims in public doesn’t always match what he says in private: When his text messages were revealed during the Dominion Voting Systems lawsuit, that lovey-dovey tone on Trump did a 180:
The latest filings in the case suggest Mr Carlson expressed his dislike of the outgoing US president two days before Trump supporters stormed the US Capitol to derail lawmakers from certifying Joe Biden’s election win.
“We are very, very close to being able to ignore Trump most nights,” he wrote in a text sent on 4 January 2021. “I truly can’t wait.“
“I hate him passionately,” he added. [emphasis added]
Which one represented the real Tucker Carlson: the version that’s performing for the cameras, or the version that’s texting in private?
(C’mon, I think we both know the answer to that one.)
This exchange at the 50-minute mark captured the general flavor:
CRUZ: As a Christian growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible, “Those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel will be cursed.” From my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of things.
CARLSON: Those who bless the government of Israel?
CRUZ: “Those who bless Israel” is what it says. It doesn’t say the government of, it says the nation of Israel, so that’s in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe that.
CARLSON: Where is that?
CRUZ: I — I can find it for you. I don’t have the Scripture off the tip of my — pull out the phone and use the —
CARLSON: It’s in Genesis. But, so, you’re quoting a Bible phrase you don’t know have context for and don’t know where in the Bible it is, but it’s, like, your theology? I’m confused.
If you want to call it a debate, Carlson won. He dominated the argument, delivered the cruelest barbs, and battered Cruz at will. (No easy feat; Cruz is a skilled, talented debater.) But it was an unfair contest, because only one side was actually playing to win: Cruz tried to have a conversation with someone he naively considered a friend… and Carlson wanted Cruz’s head on a pike.
One guy came to talk; the other came for blood.
It’s disappointing because Carlson has been around politics his entire adult life. Had he been courageous enough to have an honest, open conversation, it could’ve been an illuminating dialogue that better educated the American people about a critically important issue. Cruz and Carlson were certainly both smart enough to pull it off.
All it would’ve required was good faith.
This was a bad-faith interview.
And that’s the PR lesson for Republicans: Tucker Carlson isn’t interested in what you have to say. If you accept an invitation to be on his show, don’t expect to be treated respectfully. Don’t expect it’ll be an honest, open exchange of ideas.
Tucker’s goal isn’t truth. It’s propaganda.
“I haven’t called you a Neocon once,” Carlson told Cruz. “But you are.”
(Just for the record, Ted Cruz opposed the first Iraq War — unlike Carlson. But because he supports Israel today, he’s a Neocon. Obviously.)
“I don’t even know what an isolationist is,” Carlson claimed at one point. “It’s just a slur designed to control… I’ve never been an isolationist. I don’t even know what that means.”
Sure thing. Tucker wouldn’t lie to us, would he?
Not too long ago, Elon Musk jumped the sharp with his “Epstein” X post. Today, Tucker Carlson hopped on a pogo stick and jumped the shark, too.
An honest, robust conversation about the scope, scale, and limitations of American foreign policy could’ve been fascinating. The situation between Israel and Iran is deadly serious; it’s a matter of life and death. But instead of giving us something substantive, Carlson gave us schtick.
Hope those clicks are worth it.
CRUZ: Look, I gotta say I don’t understand, for some reason you are really invested in defending Russia. And I don’t get that. I’m not attacking you with that, I’m genuinely, like, I don’t get why you’re so passionate about defending Russia.
CARLSON: [High Pitched Laughter]
Tucker Carlson becoming the Michael Moore of the 2020s certainly wasn’t on my bingo card, yet here we are.
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